Atheist Girl

I salute your tough moral stance against the PKK.

While I absolutely support the right to Kurdish self-determination, the PKK's tactics of specifically targeting and killing innocent civilians makes them terrorists, plain and simple. Attacking military or even political targets is one thing, going after civilian women and children is another. How could the PKK not know they are hurting the Kurdish cause.

While I must plead ignorance of history, it seems that the Jews and Kurds were in simular situations at the fall of the Ottoman Empire.

Both promised a small piece of land to call their own, both proposals met with hostility by the Arab world.

As a Jew, I can't help feel our needs were addressed while the Kurds got screwed. I feel kind of guilty.

 

It was the Kurds and the Palestinians who were in similar situations after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, not the Jews.

Palestinians are still oppressed and denied their land as the Kurds are.

 

bernarda, there was no such thing as Arab "Palestinians" at the fall of the Ottoman Empire. In the most ironic of all ironies, when a news reports used the term "Palestinian" it was to describe the Jews.

 

bernarda, here is a good article from a Kurdish perspective in regards about your comparison.

Here are some choice quotes:

"While Palestinian organizations make headlines today by threatening the US and blowing up busses full of civilians, Kurdish organizations do not indulge in these tactics. Perhaps that is why Kurdistan will never be the darling cause of liberals and radicals worldwide, from the parliaments of Europe to the college campuses of America. "

"In their struggle against occupation, during which they have rejected many compromise proposals of varying fairness, they have used immoral tactics that include targeting civilians worldwide to promote their cause. These are terrorist tactics. The Kurds do not demand complete self-determination, but merely demand the right to live as Kurds. Even today the use of Kurdish language in Turkish-occupied Kurdistan is restricted."

"The Kurds of today are the Jews of decades and centuries ago. They are divided by different foreign oppressors. Some of them are forgetting their own language. Many of them are in exile. The Kurds, like the Jews, strive to live in peace with their neighbors and establish a democratic nation-state of their own. The Kurds, like the Jews, are also surrounded by “neighbors” who may hate each other but can call agree on one thing –a common cause in opposing any and all aspirations of the Jewish and Kurdish nations. "

Again, this is not from a Jew but a Kurdish Journalist

 

Jordan,
I should also add that not all PKK members support terrorist acts either (the terrorists are in the minority), so I don't believe that simply being a member of PKK would authomatically make one a terrorist.

Also there is a difference between Islamo-facist groups like Hezbollah and Hamas, and groups like IRA and PKK.

The former two,
1. do not recognise the right of existance of their adversories
2. Their aim is simply to destroy their adverseries rather than to help their own people.

The later two,
1. accept the right of their adversories for existance
2. and are not driven by the aim of destroying their adversaries but to do what is best for their own people.


So IF they did not resort to violence against civilians the former still would not have LEGITIMATE CAUSES but the later group would.

Read this.
http://kurdishaspect.blogspot.com/2006/07/july-27-2006-pkk-is-not-hezbollah.html

 

bernarda,
The demographic of almost all nations has changed throughout history and I as a Kurd do not lay claim to lands that once was more Kurdish than now and I can tell you it is alot of land that I'm talking about here.

Ok, I should make a distinction here.

1. The Kurds
They are secular. The Kurds have in their anthem, “my faith and religion is Kurd and Kurdistan”. They are not religious and understand gratitude and so when they see the only countries to ever help them are the US and Israel, they do not say, thanks but Fuck you, the way the Indonesian Muslims responded to $1 Billion pledge from Australian PM to help reconstruct the quake-stricken Muslims in Indonesia.

The Houses that the Kurds lived in, in Kirkuk still exist and people who owned those houses still exist. Anfal happened in the last 15 years, it is not ancient history. If you take my book, I have a right to get it back, but my descendents don't.


2. The Jews,
The Jews that migrated had no right to Israel. They bought their properties, just like what I would have to do in Australia if I want to own a land. If I have a right to buy a land in Australia that I MIGRATED to, then I’m not sure why the Jews didn’t have a right to buy land in Israel. It is not a question of having a right to the land, rather it is a question of identity and security.

Firstly, the Jews have a heritage and history that connects them to Israel. So it is not surprising that they migrated back. The religious sites unlike individually owned lands is the only thing that the Jews own for as long as the Jews exist. Because sacred places are owned collectively as a group and as long as the owners (the Jews) are alive, they have a claim to those sites.
If the Jews take over Mecca and build another building on the place were Kaba is now, do you think the Jews would have a right to that building?

Secondly, the Jews have been targeted as a group throughout centuries no different to what happened to the Kurds, so they need a state of their own in order to survive and have control over their own destiny. The only answer would be Israel where they already have a strong population and are historically connected to. Otherwise, like the Kurds, they would be under constant threat with Genocide always a possibility.

3. The Palestinians,
They Palestinians today do not have a right to Israeli land simply because (as I said before), no one has a right to what their ancestors owned.

 

Point taken, thanks Roya. I do not know much about Kurdish history or current affairs, but I am making an effort to learn more. http://www.kurdmedia.com/ looks very interesting.

The first think I am learning that if you don't blow up buses or hijack planes, people don't care about you.

 

Israelis have no right to Palestinian Land. They are just a bunch of undesirable colonists, in other words, illegal squatters.

Just because one has squatted for a short time, and 60 years is a short time, doesn't give one right to the house.

 

roya;

"They Palestinians today do not have a right to Israeli land simply because (as I said before), no one has a right to what their ancestors owned. "

and yet in the same post you claim the Jews have a right to the land as "Firstly, the Jews have a heritage and history that connects them to Israel"

sorry but that is called being a bigot. by granting one group rights because of a "history that connects" and denying the validity of the other group's history that connects (you know the fact that Palestinians actually lived there for hundreds of years) you are exhibiting the classic traits of a bigot

no wonder BJ and Jordan the nitwit Zionist love you so much

BDE

 

Land can either be owned and/or governed. The Jews in Israel stole nothing. There is no such thing as Palestinian land.

Land has no DNA.

 

Israel was not a sovereign nation until 1948, up until then, the land was up for negotiations, as is the West Bank today.

Arabs from lands outside of the Palestine region declared war on Israel in 1948 even though they had really no interest in the Palestine region and didn't give a rats ass about the Palestinian Arabs as evident by the treatment they gave them after the war was lost.

BDE and Bernarda can whine that Israel shouldn't exist. But they don't live in the real world. And they have no grasp of logic.

 

I have countered a-theist jew's disinformation many times, but he continues to repeat the lie that there is not Palestinian land.

He has always ignored the facts that displease him. A reminder.

In the first British census after WWI, there were 10% jews in Palestine. Since 1920, before the Mandate, the first Palestine National Congress was demanding independence.

This was refused by the British who, once the Mandate achieved, named a zionist Jew, Samuel Herbert, as high commissioner. I have documented this on earlier threads, but AJ simply ignores this and pretends that is doesn't exist.

Another Jewish perspective on the proposed creation of a "jewish state" at the time.

http://www.al-bushra.org/jerusalem1/statement.htm

"As a future form of government for Palestine will undoubtedly be considered
by the approaching Peace Conference, we, the undersigned citizens of the
United States, unite in this satement, setting forth our objection to the
organization of a Jewish State in Palestine as proposed by the Zionist
Societies in this country and Europe and TO THE SEGREGATION OF THE JEWS AS A
NATIONALISTIC UNIT IN ANY COUNTRY."

 

bernarda

I know, BJ's position is ridiculous but he simply refuses to accept any arguments to the contrary, he claims we are the ones weak on logic but in reality it is BJ who has no grasp of logic or reason.

He is typical of the small minded bigot one finds supporting Israel

BDE

 

Bernarda, you are showing that you can't grasp simple concepts. The region of Palestine existed, it is now Israel.

Demographics change....everywhere. Ever since man moved out of Africa 40,000 years ago.

The Palestine region became sovereign self governing in 1948....not prior to that.

Land can not be Palestinian, Arab, Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Caucasian, etc.

Land is individually owned and/or governed.

Land can be owned by a Palestinian Arab or a Jew. But it is only temporary, as the Jew or Palestinian can sell their land to another ethnicity or the same.

You and BDE don't want to grasp this concept because if you do, you know that the Palestinian Arabs have no leg to stand on. Which they don't.

 

BJ;

The European Jews, whose genetic ancestors had never lived in the region, arrived in Palestine and drove the local Arabs out by force and cited as their rationale the right to return.

So why is it that right applies to Jews but not the Arabs who had lived there for hundreds of years?

Sure demographics change but when done so by force they are not moral or legitimate.

You refuse to acknowledge this reality because you are a racist bigot who believes Jews get a superior set of rights to non-Jews.

BDE

 

It was only by force because the Arabs wouldn't accept immigration like we do in the West. Dearborn has gone from 1% Muslims to 40% Muslims, and that is to a sovereign nation. The Palestinian region was not sovereign until 1948.

 

Nobody was forced to leave until a war was declared by Arab countries that had no stake in the region.

 

BJ;

So you deny the entire history of inter communal violence between native Arabs and foreign Jews leading up to '48?

Of course the Arab states declared war, a Jewish state (as opposed to a state for Jews and non-Jews) had just been created with the aid of European powers (who had no business doing so) in lands that had been continuously inhabited by Arabs for hundreds of years.

What else would one expect them to do? Why should the Arabs pay the price for the European Holocaust?

BDE

 

You are a revisionist and nothing more. You have oversimplified things. All countries were created with an asterisk. But you are just worried about one.

Who cares where a good chunk of the Jews came from? What does that matter? There are Muslims everywhere on this planet now, and most of them immigrated from other countries one or two generations ago.

The Arab countries were the ones who declared war...and they showed they didn't give a rats ass about the indigenous population as seen by the way they didn't care afterwards.

We aren't talking about a lot of real estate, but we are talking about an intolerant people (the Arabs). Nothing more, nothing less.

Israel exists. Get over it. Quit whining, you look pathetic.

 

BJ

"Israel exists. Get over it. Quit whining, you look pathetic. " - good to see you have run out of "logical" arguments.

It must just gall you that so few buy into your racist BS.

ROTFLMAO!


BDE

 

BDE --

The joke is on you lefty. It always has been. What you don't understand, you liberal jerks label as "racist" and laugh your silly heads off over your bankrupt logic.

 

Anon,

Try and make sense.

You are a joke.

BDE

 

I piticurly criticise you? roya.ppk is not terorist,the countreis put in the teror list for them economicall interest,you as political student you should no that,

for any kurds is shame to call there brothers and sister terorist,This like (Jash)traiter,during the the genocide of kurdish in turkey,and anfal in iraq,the jash were colabarator,this the same,

you should be not a bioset,is important,you show the turkish teror and genocide against kurdish,for many century,turkish commited genocide against kurds people,language ,calture,geography,still is kurdish language in turkey is banned,pkk dont have any chiose,to fight,they are defending,Still kurdish is been denying in turkey,turks commited genocide against kurdish,armenian,greeks,and other minoriteis,and still they dont want apologise,you as politic student you should be aware in kurdish qastion,we kurds been opressed in all middle east countreis,

befor they were calling,the great leaader,Mr Nelson mendela terorist,but after 27 years in prison,they freed him,give him nobel peace price,very respect it.
Ocalan is our mendela.after few years he will be free,and they will give him nobel peace price,and freedom fighter,this all is matter of the time,ever body knows they are freedom fighter,this for sake of political advantages,recently the heigh Europian court withdrown pkk from there list,they reveild the reality,

I am from south kurdistan,but kurdish people is aware now ,we are not like kurds as befor,every body to use as toll,we are leading our politics,and kurds united,from thouth to the north west to east,kurds doesnt any more recognice thi srtificial borders,

hope you get my point

LOng live united kurdistan
imortality for myrters
PKK+Pdk+UNK=Kurdistan
Barzani+talabani+ocalan=kurdistan

 

I piticurly criticise you? roya.ppk is not terorist,the countreis put in the teror list for them economicall interest,you as political student you should no that,

for any kurds is shame to call there brothers and sister terorist,This like (Jash)traiter,during the the genocide of kurdish in turkey,and anfal in iraq,the jash were colabarator,this the same,

you should be not a bioset,is important,you show the turkish teror and genocide against kurdish,for many century,turkish commited genocide against kurds people,language ,calture,geography,still is kurdish language in turkey is banned,pkk dont have any chiose,to fight,they are defending,Still kurdish is been denying in turkey,turks commited genocide against kurdish,armenian,greeks,and other minoriteis,and still they dont want apologise,you as politic student you should be aware in kurdish qastion,we kurds been opressed in all middle east countreis,

befor they were calling,the great leaader,Mr Nelson mendela terorist,but after 27 years in prison,they freed him,give him nobel peace price,very respect it.
Ocalan is our mendela.after few years he will be free,and they will give him nobel peace price,and freedom fighter,this all is matter of the time,ever body knows they are freedom fighter,this for sake of political advantages,recently the heigh Europian court withdrown pkk from there list,they reveild the reality,

I am from south kurdistan,but kurdish people is aware now ,we are not like kurds as befor,every body to use as toll,we are leading our politics,and kurds united,from thouth to the north west to east,kurds doesnt any more recognice thi srtificial borders,

hope you get my point

LOng live united kurdistan
imortality for myrters
PKK+Pdk+UNK=Kurdistan
Barzani+talabani+ocalan=kurdistan