Atheist Girl

Now you have definitely discredited yourself by promoting ultra-extreme rightwing racist terrorist Netanyahu. (I would use a more accurate description, but you wouldn't publish it)

He, like his brothers, was a member of the Israeli terror squad Sayeret Matkal. This was the successor to the infamous terror group Unit 101 led by war criminal Sharon.

The rightwing Likud Party of which even Netanyahu is an extremist was established by terrorists Begin and Shamir. Both wanted criminals during the Mandate.

Here is an American Jewish perspective from 1948.

http://www.globalwebpost.com/farooqm/study_res/einstein/nyt_letter.html

Here are their words, not mine.

"Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the “Freedom Party” (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.

The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin’s political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.

Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin’s behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement."

It gets better, or worse if you like.

I believe I have already posted a link to the BBC radio report on Jewish terrorism in Palestine after WWII. If not, or to recall,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/document/document_20060724.shtml

 

Your brain is stuck in 1948 Bernarda. Israel exists, and political parties in Israel are far less polarized.
There is no Fascism going on in Israel, and no matter how many times you repeat a lie, it is still a lie.

 

Bacon Eating Atheist Jew,
may be you can't call it fascism (and being italian i know you're right) but u can't deny that Israel's policy is very aggressive and often wrong. Don't tell me they have to defend themselves coz palestinians could say the same exact thing, being under attack every single day, in an apartheid situation, with a wall and all the rest. What should we say then about colonies that keep growing and steeling important natural resources in palestinian territories? It's all too complicated and they're no saints, just like the palestinians.

 

Jones, no country has a perfect track record. Leaders come and go, and they all make mistakes.
In case you haven't noticed, Israel left Gaza, Amona, and a few other settlements lately. I'm not sure that means they are growing.
If Palestinians dropped their guns there would be peace, and the Palestinians wouldn't have to worry about "defending" themselves.
If Israel dropped their guns, there would be no Israel.

 

"If Palestinians dropped their guns there would be peace, and the Palestinians wouldn't have to worry about "defending" themselves.
If Israel dropped their guns, there would be no Israel."

Couldn't have said it better myself!

 

Yes, they left those settlements because they could't cope with the costs of occupation anymore but they are axpanding all the other settlements (west bank and so on), in case u haven't noticed. Settlements are an obstacle to peace as much as guns. If Palestinians would drop their guns there would be peace but no Palestine, just one big settlement called Israel. But you're right when u say that if Israel would drop their guns there would be no Israel.

 

jones, while I am against the settlements completely I do not see it more as an excuse then a hinderance. In a peaceful solution, a fair land exchange or compensation is certainly possible or the jewish settlers can simply pay their taxes to a Palestinian government as Arab Israelis pay their taxes to a Israeli government.

Its ironic that Israel has over a million Arab citizens with full political and religious rights while Palestinians demand no Jews in their future state and Israel is the one labelled as an apartheid.

Regarding the wall, its unfair to call it "apartheid". It was built for one purpose only, to stop the suicide bombers from blowing up buses, restaurants, and night clubs. And when everything else failed the wall worked, the suicide bombing stopped.

Any nation in the world would build a wall to protect their kids from being blown up. While I do not agree with the exact location of the wall, I think it has saves countless lives on both sides.

Before someone mentions that "they wouldn't suicide bomb if the jews would just...", keep in mind that two churchers in Gaza were firebombed tonight because of a statement by the pope hurt their feelings. Its very difficult to negotiate with a culture that resorts to violence so easily.

Jones, the Jews have always wanted a two state solution. Remember, they agreed to the idea in 1948 with tears of joy. Its the Arabs that have always said "no, we have a better idea. We will invade and drive you into the sea". Five years and two intefatas later, nothing has changed and the Jews still have to beg for their right to exists.

 

You know, when people on the right protested against removing the settlements from Gaza because it would turn it into a terrorists training camp, I thought they were desperate and lying. They were 100% right.

The only peaceful area with any hope at all is the West Bank were the settlements give Israel an excuse to enforce law and order so chaos does not erupt on the streets between rivaling Palestinian factions.

At this point, leaving the west bank would be suicide for both Jews and Arabs. Without the occupation, the leading fanctions would enforce Sharia within weeks, removing any sense of hope just like they did in Gaza. The Jews hoped that if they built universities, hospitals, industries and colleges the Palestinians would choose a secular liberal culture... that was niave.

I am 100% for a two-state solution, but I have no illusions what Palestine will become. Whether it is Algeria, Iraq, Iran, Egypt, or Gaza, the only choices seem to be dictatorships/athoraties or democraticly elected theocratic hellhole.

Jones, from reading your site I think you are a good person and it is a pleasure to debate you.

 

Jones, there were hardly any settlements until the mid 70's and mostly the 80's. There were none prior to 1967.
Over 50% of Palestinians polled stated that attacks should continue even if Israel goes back to the Green Line. Not much of a difference from what they think without withdrawel.
In other words, the only thing the settlements are an obstacle to is being closer to kill more Jews at heavily populated centers. Even though, like Jordan, I view them as a mistake, they are nothing but a Red Herring when it comes to the peace process.

 

"Over 50% of Palestinians polled stated that attacks should continue even if Israel goes back to the Green Line. Not much of a difference from what they think without withdrawel."

I perfectly agree with u, but 50% is far from 100% and this is the result of hate-based policies from both sides, i'm sure a similar poll in israel would give a similar result.

"while I am against the settlements completely I do not see it more as an excuse then a hinderance. In a peaceful solution, a fair land exchange or compensation is certainly possible or the jewish settlers can simply pay their taxes to a Palestinian government as Arab Israelis pay their taxes to a Israeli government."

I dont agree here, first i'm not really sure that settlers would pay theyr taxes to a palestinian gov, second they dont want compensation, that's the all point of it, they want their land back!

"a million Arab citizens with full political and religious rights" are u sure? they're usually dispenced from military service, they are discriminated in various ways (building licences, joining back their families in israel etc, of course palestinian position is even worse, but are we supporting the less evil or trying make them both better? closing your eyes in front of israel's evil side doesn't make things better.

"Any nation in the world would build a wall to protect their kids from being blown up" are u sure again? were do u live? they wouldn't in my country and i'm sure in many others.

"Its very difficult to negotiate with a culture that resorts to violence so easily." it's even more difficult if Israel keeps going on with this kind of aggressive policies, dont u think so? dont fool yourself, they're not violent because of their culture or religion! is that what u're trying to say? coz that's what the neocons suggest. They're violent as a result of UN resolutions being completely ignored, ongoing war for the past 30 years, propaganda from the far extreme islamic parties (flourishing in this environment) and so on, i'll never say it enough times, aggression and occupation won't help inverting this trend.

"Five years and two intefatas later, nothing has changed and the Jews still have to beg for their right to exists."
I dont see israel begging, i see palestinians begging for water and basic needs in a region more and more wild and left to itself. I'm not surprised thay have Hamas now, i mean the trend is clear, we are going to extremes in both directions. We've just gone too far! I'm not defending palestinians or the arab world in general, i'm just trying to get your attention on the fact that these people are people like us and in those conditions everyone would tend to extremistic views. When u say :"Its the Arabs that have always said "no, we have a better idea. We will invade and drive you into the sea" i got shivers, The arabs? every single one? that's the mistake, we have to work to favour the moderates and isolate the extremists. I think it can be done and i think that the results are going to be seen in the long term but the way we are walking down now is very dangerous...

PS
Thanks Jordan, very appreciated

 

a-theist jew, "Your brain is stuck in 1948 Bernarda. Israel exists"

The racist terrorist Israelis' brain is stuck back in 500 BCE. Apartheid so-called Israel might not exist for long.

It won't be missed, except maybe by KKK like AJ.

 

Here are some quotes from zionist history.

http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2005/11/01/palestine-should-be-wiped-off-the-map-did-anyone-react/

For example, David Green, aka Ben Gurion.

“We must expel Arabs and take their places.”

— David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”

— David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

 

Jones - "I dont agree here, first i'm not really sure that settlers would pay theyr taxes to a palestinian gov, second they dont want compensation, that's the all point of it, they want their land back!"

Do you have any idea how many Jews have been kicked out of Arab land in the last 100 years? Or Bahai? Or Coptics and Armenians? Again, I am against the settlements but lets try to keep some perspective. No country could launch 5 wars to drive the Jews into the sea, lose, and then expect 5 "do-overs".

Jones - "a million Arab citizens with full political and religious rights" are u sure? they're usually dispenced from military service, they are discriminated in various ways (building licences, joining back their families in israel etc..

Is the relationship perfect? HELL NO! But I would put the situation in Israel against that of Britian or France's Arab segrigration and discrimination ANY DAY of the week. The fact is when polled, over 75% of Arabs would rather live in a Jewish state than a Palestinian state... perhaps they know something we don't.

Most countries, including my own, have "selective immagration" laws. Israel, the country under the MOST threat is being asked to conduct themselves in a manner no other country would.

Jones - ""Any nation in the world would build a wall to protect their kids from being blown up" are u sure again? were do u live? they wouldn't in my country and i'm sure in many others."

Your kidding right? Do your kids know this? If Scottish restaurants were being suicide bombed every day by people calling for the death of all Scottish, what would you do? When a suicide bomber was successful (about 1 in 10), the Jews could not just sit there. They had to respond and as a result, more Palestinians died in a vicsous circle. The wall stopped the violence on both sides, it has saved countless lives, most of which Palestinians.

jones - "dont fool yourself, they're not violent because of their culture or religion!"

Tell that to the Danish cartoonist still in hiding. Or the natives of Thailand who just got blown up again tonight.

Do you not think it is ironic that you defend the religion the same day 5 churches were firebombed and gun spread because of the Pope's speech? Did it even matter if those churches were not Catholic?

Let's face it, any religion that kills those who leave it has some serious problems. Honor killings, male-supremecy, consperacy theories, and scapegoating are endemic in the Islamic world.. we cannot ignore the obvious situation on the ground.

Being Italian, I am sure you can appreciate how a nation taken over by an ideology that is exceptionally violent and cannot be appeased.

Jones - "i'll never say it enough times, aggression and occupation won't help inverting this trend."

What nation wouldn't respond to rocket attacks? Didn't the Jews just get out of Gaza? Did things get better or worse? How many days passed by before they destroyed their own greenhouses. Its not like the Jews woke up one day and said "lets occupy Gaza and West Bank". They were forced to engage in yet another war against an enemy calling for the killing of all the Jews.

Jews don't want Palestinians to suffer, in fact, the whole purpose of building so many universities and businesses was in hope they would choose co-existance. It did not work.

I am not saying the Jews are angels. But no nation on earth would tolerate being invaded or suicide bombed so many times and still go back to the negotiation table again and again and again.

 

"Didn't the Jews just get out of Gaza?"

They had no right to be there in the first place.

"Its not like the Jews woke up one day and said "lets occupy Gaza and West Bank"."

That is exactly what they did.

"Jews don't want Palestinians to suffer, in fact, the whole purpose of building so many universities and businesses was in hope they would choose co-existance. It did not work."

That is a pure lie as I showed in my previous post.

"But no nation on earth would tolerate being invaded or suicide bombed"

Apartheid Israel is not a legitimate nation. Palestinians never invaded Israel, they were trying to recuperate their land and defend their rights. Israelis have no rights at all in Palestine, they just use the formula "might makes right".

 

There is no such thing as Palestinian land. Your lies Bernarda start there. So the foundation is wrong, your arguments are strawman.

 

I'm sorry bacon but you're wrong, if you argue in those terms. There's no palestinian land? Israel didn't exist before the war!
I think we should all calm down. That region and the struggle of the people there (both people) don't need us to take any of the sides, coz they're both wrong and both right. We should all work to understand each other's issues and not take sides.
Your approach is wrong. Both filo-palestinians and filo-israel.

What u dont seem to grasp people, is that propaganda is a very powerful tool and works very well where hate is flourishing. And there's a lot of hate on both sides. That situation could be anywhere in the planet where two different etnies (or religions) get to a clash. But it gets that bad only if u shut your mind and listen only to one side and you have leaders stupid enough to get drugged down in such a stupid vicious circle.

"Your kidding right? Do your kids know this? If Scottish restaurants were being suicide bombed every day by people calling for the death of all Scottish, what would you do?"

I want to remind you what happened in Ireland (very close to scotland) Two religions, two states at war. Bombs and terror. Belfast never saw a wall. Check points everywhere and a very similar situation but both sides refrained from getting down to such ways. Not because they're from a better culture but just because their leaders were clever enough to understand that extreme solutions wouldn't have helped.

"Let's face it, any religion that kills those who leave it has some serious problems."

It's not the religion but the extreme and fundamentalist interpretation of it, Fundies in the states would like to kill all homosexuals. Are all xtians bad? i dont think so.

And with this I say bye. My contribution to this issue is over. See u around guys, all the best.

 

Vinnie, land can not be Jewish, Palestinian, Caucasian, Muslim, Arab, Christian, etc.

Land is either owned and or governed. It has no DNA.

Demographics change all the time. When Israel was created nobody had to move. But when the Arabs started a war, it changed things.

The Palestine region was not sovereign until 1948. Up until then it was up for negotiations. Just like the West Bank and Gaza are today. Gaza was in fact made Jew free thanks to negotiations (within Israel for the most part). It was up to Israel who controls the West Bank and Gaza (up until recently).

 

"It's not the religion but the extreme and fundamentalist interpretation of it, Fundies in the states would like to kill all homosexuals. Are all xtians bad? i dont think so."

Many Nazis were ordinary people joining the party so that they can get on with their jobs and life. Do you ever call for a change in the use of the word Nazi? No.

Religion is what it is, a load of shit. There is no different interpretations. There is only some that delude themselves to beieving that their religion is compatible with humanism. But that does not mean their religion is compatible with human rights as is also the case with Nazism. Just because many Nazis were inactive and did not believe in Nazi doctrines, that does not mean Nazism is OK, or that Nazis were not bad.

 

Roya, are differences between religions. For example, Jews don't go around needing or looking for converts like Muslims and Christians do.

Maybe some Christians wish homosexuals would die, but unlike in Islamic countries, that is all it is....a wish.
Homosexuals do not fear for their life by saying they are gay in the West.

A little OT, this is written by a student in the UAE who converted to Christianity from Islam.
I don't know if you've read this, but I found it to be pretty much what I would expect.

 

"Homosexuals do not fear for their life by saying they are gay in the West."

Yeah! in your dreams!

"Religion is what it is, a load of shit." I absolutely agree, with all that u said. what I meant was that we shouldn't categorize according to religions, no one is good or bad just because he belives in one religion instead of another (or none).

Generalization is wrong. You could generalise on everything, jews too.

 

Vinnie, c'mon, gays fear for their lives in the West?

 

Bacon,

These are just 4 articles from the guardian, from the very western and liberal country called UK. It took 2 seconds to find them.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,,1799784,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,,1595323,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/gayrights/story/0,,1066388,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/gayrights/story/0,,1659296,00.html

enjoy

 

Poor a-theist jew can't get anything right, "Jews don't go around needing or looking for converts like Muslims and Christians do."

Maybe, maybe not, but they have no qualms about just invading, taking, and colonizing the infidels' land and massacring them in the name of their holy book.

Guess what, that holy book is the word of god for them. But no, absolutely not, Isreal is not a theocratic state. LOL.

At least zionist jews do look for converts. They have organizations for converting people to zionism, like AIPAC, JINSA, ADL, etc., only they are now called lobbies.

They use first convincing, then money, and finally intimidation. If a congressman/woman opposes zionist theology, they find zionist money supporting their opponents in the next election.

If a professor doesn't convert and toe the line, or at least keep quiet, he/she will find a media slur campaign against them to prevent them from getting a post, as happened to Professor Juan Cole at Yale.

McCarthyite groups like CAMERA and Campus Watch are set up just for that purpose.

 

Jones. How many gay people are killed for being gay in the West?

Bernarda, the Palis have you as a spokesperson. You can keep the lies going for them in cyberspace.

How is the Pali state coming along:)

 

Gee, a-theist jew, so in fact the main thing you are worried about, in Canada even, is that your gayness is not well received by some muslims.

But most muslim men are gay like you. You should get along well with them.

 

Just like a true leftist, bernarda shows her true colors with her anti-Jewish, pro-terrorist propaganda, and now, with anti-gay sentiment as well. Way to go.